Hah-hah! "like write now". Indeed, at Mount Holyoke (1968-72) I very rarely took a test; most frequently wrote papers. Which latter required my thinking carefully about the topic on which I wrote. Learning to prepare an 'expose de texte'--a feature of academic life for French lyceens, but only for me reached at college, was, I suspect, not an inconsiderable part of learning to think and to write.
One other aspect could be the student was overly "protected" and coddled. They never learned consequences of their actions... Yet the "social life" in college away from those protections, the student made poor choices. Need I say more? (read Drugs, alcohol etc.) Perhaps Marilyn was afraid of offending the parent who set up their child for failure instead of instilling as you described "critical thinking skills." I recall in my college days in a fraternity (long ago) there were classmates who started drinking Monday night and didn't stop until Sunday! They were drunk perpetually, never attended classes and imagine that, they flunked out.
JD: I found your points relevant regarding why someone might fail in college. All your observations are true but do not necessarily indicate a lack of intelligence.
Tom: It comes down to what we agree is "intelligence." Briefly, IMO, intelligence means knowledge + ability to apply it (esp. critical thinking). In US K-12 today the knowledge part is deficient, and the opposite of critical thinking is being taught.
While Marilyn commented on why someone could fail in their first year of college, she did not answer the question of “How could the school have admitted her?”
Regardless of the definition of intelligence, it is not essential in the context of her response.
Her first response was “Plenty of students bomb as freshmen, with no one having a clue beforehand. I find it a bit ironic that your “beforehand clues” actually support her answer. If a student is passed from grade to grade because of grade inflation and lack of critical thinking skills being taught it would appear to the college admissions staff that all is fine.
While she did not answer the basic question, she did provide potential reasons for failing.
She said “Reasons vary wildly (from stress to finances and being just plain sick of schooling), but they have little to do with ability or intelligence.” I believe it is accurate to say that stress, finances and being sick of school are not indicators of intelligence, especially with young people whose mental abilities have not yet fully developed.
Tom: Again, yes there are multiple possible reasons for a person dropping out of college. For example you haven't mentioned that they could be homesick.
My point is that there are three MAJOR, well-known reasons for college to be too much for a freshman. IMO those account for the majority of dropouts.
You are completely wrong about Marilyn's answer. I also have a degree in physics and experienced the requirement of taking several classes that were not only boring but have been of no value since then. Deciding to drop out after one year in college does not necessarily indicate a lack of intelligence. There are many careers that do not require a college degree. The best example is when someone decides to start their own business. I am sure you can find such examples easily.
Another huge change in our K-12 public schools over the last few years is the ratio of administrators to teachers (and students). Using data from the U.S. Department of Education and The Center for education Statistics, between 2019 and 2020, the percentage of admin to teachers and students increased by almost 88%. More admin means more school counselors and more teacher inservice, neither of which are needed for teachers to do their job.
Some states & K-12 school districts are lowering their graduation requirements to the point high school diplomas are issued to the illiterate. Somehow there always seems to be enough budget for sports, at the expense of class sizes, teacher resources, and SPED programs (which include some savants). The USA prefers to fund entertainment & war industries over education...
Aside from the utter lack of critical thinking skills instruction, decision making skill learning is equally AWOL. If you can't make good decisions, smarts, knowledge and a big roll away won't help you.
DaB: Yes. My commentary is a quickie overview, and indeed the actual situation is much worse. All the more reason that Marilyn's answer missed the mark.
Having “the highest IQ in the world” does not necessarily endow the possessor with common sense.
Paul: That's right. Or Wisdom. Or knowledge of everything. etc.
Hah-hah! "like write now". Indeed, at Mount Holyoke (1968-72) I very rarely took a test; most frequently wrote papers. Which latter required my thinking carefully about the topic on which I wrote. Learning to prepare an 'expose de texte'--a feature of academic life for French lyceens, but only for me reached at college, was, I suspect, not an inconsiderable part of learning to think and to write.
One other aspect could be the student was overly "protected" and coddled. They never learned consequences of their actions... Yet the "social life" in college away from those protections, the student made poor choices. Need I say more? (read Drugs, alcohol etc.) Perhaps Marilyn was afraid of offending the parent who set up their child for failure instead of instilling as you described "critical thinking skills." I recall in my college days in a fraternity (long ago) there were classmates who started drinking Monday night and didn't stop until Sunday! They were drunk perpetually, never attended classes and imagine that, they flunked out.
David: Yes, that is another cause for college dropouts. I was including such bad behavior under the category of not having Critical Thinking skills.
Superb, and in my opinion, extremely accurate assessment on your part, John!
BB: Thank you for your support. What you did not say is that your view is from being a l;ongtime teacher.
JD: I found your points relevant regarding why someone might fail in college. All your observations are true but do not necessarily indicate a lack of intelligence.
Tom: It comes down to what we agree is "intelligence." Briefly, IMO, intelligence means knowledge + ability to apply it (esp. critical thinking). In US K-12 today the knowledge part is deficient, and the opposite of critical thinking is being taught.
While Marilyn commented on why someone could fail in their first year of college, she did not answer the question of “How could the school have admitted her?”
Regardless of the definition of intelligence, it is not essential in the context of her response.
Her first response was “Plenty of students bomb as freshmen, with no one having a clue beforehand. I find it a bit ironic that your “beforehand clues” actually support her answer. If a student is passed from grade to grade because of grade inflation and lack of critical thinking skills being taught it would appear to the college admissions staff that all is fine.
While she did not answer the basic question, she did provide potential reasons for failing.
She said “Reasons vary wildly (from stress to finances and being just plain sick of schooling), but they have little to do with ability or intelligence.” I believe it is accurate to say that stress, finances and being sick of school are not indicators of intelligence, especially with young people whose mental abilities have not yet fully developed.
Tom: Again, yes there are multiple possible reasons for a person dropping out of college. For example you haven't mentioned that they could be homesick.
My point is that there are three MAJOR, well-known reasons for college to be too much for a freshman. IMO those account for the majority of dropouts.
So true. Thanks for an interesting discussion. Looking forward to other topics.
Tom: TY for being civil and open-minded.
Feel free to peruse my archives where I have taken on a variety of interesting topics <https://criticallythinking.substack.com/archive>.
You are completely wrong about Marilyn's answer. I also have a degree in physics and experienced the requirement of taking several classes that were not only boring but have been of no value since then. Deciding to drop out after one year in college does not necessarily indicate a lack of intelligence. There are many careers that do not require a college degree. The best example is when someone decides to start their own business. I am sure you can find such examples easily.
Tom: TY for sharing your viewpoint. I'm sorry that you didn't find any of the three major K-12 facts I cited to be relevant.
Very good answer. This is a very good answer.
Bruce: Appreciate the support
Another huge change in our K-12 public schools over the last few years is the ratio of administrators to teachers (and students). Using data from the U.S. Department of Education and The Center for education Statistics, between 2019 and 2020, the percentage of admin to teachers and students increased by almost 88%. More admin means more school counselors and more teacher inservice, neither of which are needed for teachers to do their job.
PM: Yes, from what I know your claim is accurate.
Re your first #1 & 3 items:
Some states & K-12 school districts are lowering their graduation requirements to the point high school diplomas are issued to the illiterate. Somehow there always seems to be enough budget for sports, at the expense of class sizes, teacher resources, and SPED programs (which include some savants). The USA prefers to fund entertainment & war industries over education...
Aside from the utter lack of critical thinking skills instruction, decision making skill learning is equally AWOL. If you can't make good decisions, smarts, knowledge and a big roll away won't help you.
DaB: Yes. My commentary is a quickie overview, and indeed the actual situation is much worse. All the more reason that Marilyn's answer missed the mark.
This is a very good answer. I hope Marilyn will be tutored by JD.
TY. We all makes mistakes, but I hope that Marilyn gets a better understanding of what is going on in today's K-12.
Seriously? "like write now!"? Fingernails on the chalkboard could be blunted by a pair of quotation marks around "write", right?
The only saving grace would be that AI and not a staff writer might be penning Marylyn's articles while she's away. Fingers crossed, am I write?
Reggie: It is intended to be a joke — and you may be correct.