Read all the comments and found them very interesting. At first it sounded great to get the Feds out of education but, I have reservations about the states having sole control over K-12 education.
I think some constructive oversight is definitely necessary, but with a much reduced DOE. I've taught in several different states, and the standards vary. Perhaps some very basic standards (critical thinking being tops) could be agreed upon that states must agree to, but they would be free to develop the methods. Then I think competition among the states might be encouraged by the reformed DOE with rewards of some sort like grants. Some form of measurement would also have to be included. Also publicizing which states are showing success so parents are aware. Of course this isn't going to be easy, and bureaucratic bloat has to be monitored. This mess didn't happen overnight.
John: Interestingly enough, the first thing that came into my mind when I sat down at my computer this morning, even before seeing the email about this new version, I had a flashback to reading your previous version, then this thought came into my mind: Even if Jesus the Christ sent 50 of his own disciples out to the states, with instructions on what each state needed in order to save their K-12 education system - it wouldn't work. Due to everyone's human habit patterns, human knowledge, human discernment, human yadayadayada - the results would still be all over the map. But if Jesus himself were at the head of the DOE, directing from that position, with good feedback from the field, he could keep any straying from his original intent in check.
That experience was another clear indication to me that you are correct--direction from the top down is the key to saving our K-12 education system.
You are welcome! Great suggestion! Though I don't think the "minimal" would fit with what I experienced - the "competent" qualification was definitely an important part of it.
I don't always agree with you, but think you contribute tremendously to any question.
But this time, I don't agree AT ALL. KILL IT. Some states will excel, some fail miserably. But overall, they will be far better than what we have suffered. I think it is VERY unlikely a reformed DOEd will be anything like what you hope. Even under Trump and McMahan. Some states may, or do even better. Some failing states may learn from successful ones.
Richard: TY for the support. The reality is that right now, ZERO states are succeeding and ALL are failiing miserably. And DOEd has absolutely nothing to do with that. Nothing is keeping any state from doing a superior job at educating K-12 students — yet none of them are. What's needed is positive leadership — which has been missing from DOEd.
Kill it. Of all the unauthorized activity of 'creeping federalism', NONE has been so disastrously abused as the activity of DOE - -from CRT to pushing multi-sexuality agendas, to subordinating the Christian Bible to the Koran, DOE efforts to undermine traditional US History, morality, character and culture have been an abomination.
Accepted 'norms' in California, simply do not fly in Utah (nor do they in Texas) . Each social community establishes the standards for their children, and governs the education of their children through locally elected school boards.
The process of using Federal taxation to collect funds in the name of Education, stealing 50% of it to build empires, and dismantle accepted social norms, then grant or withhold the remainder to States based on State willingness to participate in controversial social experiments, is NOT acceptable. Get the Federal Government OUT of the business of Educating American Youth.
John, I believe that the Federal Dept of Education must continue to control, similar to that in corporations, as a quality control, transparency agency, and archive. To assure the Board of Directors that product quality is maintained and correctly reported, a product control dept reports to a VP. Other functions, Distribution of grants, etc. must be separately controlled by other dept.
The education control agency would investigate, produce studies, maintain free online archives of all states' "progress," records of all independent school systems, and reporting to the American people, schoolboards, and PTAs. and monitor state actions.
The problem with K-12 education is 95% diue to State Boards of Education. We have a fsailing system because no one is paying attention to them, or holding their feet to the fire. If properly setup, DOEd could play a pivotal role in doing that.
All of the reasons that AI gave John for preserving DoEd are the same reasons for its creation. The mechanisms described as beneficial are exactly the mechanisms used for destruction during the last half century.
Without some way to prevent it being subverted again, it's probably best to abolish it and return control of education to the states. Remember that before its establishment, on average, the states were doing a better job than they are now. Yes, some were lagging, but others were leading. It's much easier for a dinghy to change course than for an aircraft carrier to change course, and it's much easier for an aircraft carrier to change course than for a lighthouse to get out of the aircraft carrier's path.
If it is to be preserved at all, its remit must be substantially reduced. An absolutely necessary condition is abolition of public-sector unions, not just in education, but throughout government. FDR (!) opposed them, saying they resulted in two parties negotiating from the same side of the table against the absent taxpayers.
Carter established the DOEd in 1979/1980 in an attempt to win the 1980 election. A purely political play designed to garner the endorsement from the nation's largest teacher's union, the NEA. That's all there was to it. Since we already had HEW, there was no burning need for the establishment of a DOEd. The NEA continued to work closely with the Department they help create, introducing policies that mostly benefited the NEA at the expense of students. A decentralized education system, in the hands of state and locally elected or appointed school boards, is where the engines of improvement in American education will happen. Congress can still provide federal funding to the states through the Treasury Department.
Mary-Lou: That sounds good, but it has not worked for multiple reasons — e.g. parents do not have the interest or competence to study and oversee State standards — e.g. Science Standards. Right now they actually HAVE that power, yet they have no interest in using it.
Robert: Undoubtedly your history has some truth to it. That said, your endorsement of a "decentralized" education system fails to pass the sniff test. For example, there has been absolutely nothing stopping any state from teaching their K-12 students to be Critical Thinkers — yet ZERO DO SO. It's easy to kick around a fedeeral agency, but 95% of the faults of the current K-12 system are due to the States. As such it makes zero sense to remove a federal agency that (if done right) could provide powerful and productive education leadership — which is what is missing now.
I would rather see a comparison of the benefits of a single large entity to that of fifty smaller entities.
Let's compare generically first:
Fed: Controlled by Congress, Presumes that there will be only One Way to educate the American People and uses the power of the purse or law to cajole, coerce and convince the States to comply with the Fed way, Like a massive oil tanker it holds a lot, but of only one product, and changes course only with great effort and time, not to mention that if anything happens to be in its way, it will be run over them or move them off to the side. Its rationale depends upon a belief that the people of the respective states are not competent enough or wise enough to plan, execute, and succeed at educating their residents to become responsible citizens but somehow the members of a larger and more insulated bureaucracy are. It presumes that fifty different systems of educating Americans will be inherently detrimental to the health of the Nation. Greater accountability distance exists between the people educated and those who control how they are educated. There is no other Dept of Ed to provide competition for ideas or methods. Like most monopolies they lose vigor from lack of competition.
State: Controlled by whatever distribution of education power each state allows, Does not presume to tell other states what or how to teach its residents, Can change policy quicker within a state, as it does not require a delegation from any other state to approve, Provides incubators for new ideas. With some states controlled by Dems and some Republican, it assures that differing points of view will not be stifled by a then sitting President of the opposite party. The accountability distance between the educated and those who control how they are educated is smaller. They are rivals with other states’ policies, which tends to create comparison and competition. The universities are in the states and not the federal government. It is from the colleges and universities that many ideas and methods originate, and it is in the state education systems where they germinate.
Both: They have shown in the past to become bureaucracies whose purpose moves away from its mission statement towards one of self-preservation; That the Parkinson's Laws apply to both: Work expands so as to fill the time available for its completion, and the number of workers within public administration, bureaucracy or officialdom tends to grow, regardless of the amount of work to be done. This was attributed mainly to two factors: that officials want subordinates, not rivals, and that officials make work for each other. In the modern world all states have a vast diversity of population.
I don't believe that it is a matter of science. It is a matter of preference based on local culture, as there has never really ever been a single dominate national culture here, only a single dominate political theory. As the phrase goes: ‘You make the call’.
Makes you wonder how education was so effective before DOE was hatched. Think critically: if all states are uniform then we can’t discover which approaches work best.
RH: You are proving a well-known fact "Correlation does not imply causation".
1 - The Left has made a much more aggressive effort to take over K-12 education — in teacher certification and on the States' level — over the last 30-40 years. That is the reason for the decline in K-12 education, not DOEd.
2 - Right now, all states are uniform — uniformly poor. For example, 49 of 50 states have adopted the progressive and inferior set of K-12 Science standards. For example, essentially no State has good legislation that prohibits age-inappropriate books in K-12 schools. I'm advocating for uniformly much better.
John's two arguments describe the status quo, not the status quo ante. These conditions came into existence precisely because pf the existence of DoEd, not despite it.
The performance of the nation's education establishment was clearly better before DoEd came into existence than at any time since. NEA and leftists used DoEd to destroy American education, not to preserve or improve it. We know from experience that during the last century at least, the people interested in "serving" in government are either incompetent or actively destructive, whereas the people who want small competent government aren't interested in engaging in it. Part of the problem was created by the Pendeleton Act of 1883, which made civil "service" a career instead of a duty, and more lucrative and attractive. If DoEd is to continue, some mechanisms must be emplaced to ensure it's used for improvement, else it will inevitably again be used for destruction and to enrich union leaders.
Van: I have already responded to that opinion: correlation doe not prove causation. The unequivocal evidence is that the failure of the US K-12 education system is 95%± on the backs of States.
At this point my inclination is to abolish the DOE and the teacher's union and start over. The brainwashing and dumbing down of our children is a disgrace, and there should be major reforms at the state level as well. Get back to the basics, and that includes critical thinking.
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, however,…."
The goals are admirable, if only the process could work without the corruption inevitable in a bloated bureaucracy. And bureaucracies inevitably become bloated.
Van: Yes there are challenges — however there is no better option available to us. For example, there is no way to avoid bureaucratic incompetence, etc — but every one of the fifty States' education depoartment is also a bureaucracy.
Reforming anything in government typically results in preserving aspects of the organizational culture. It’s like a chronic disease that does not go away. Treating the symptoms may make you feel better, but the disease remains.
The only hope is to start from scratch with a new mission, goals and objectives, strategy, operational plan, people, funding, location, etc.
After years of experience seeing wishful thinking through reform fail, my recommendation is to kill it and start all over.
Carey: I have already spelled out my position, in detail, on a prior commentary. The AI check was to see if I had forgotten something, not to determine my position... Regarding your concern about future administrations, I answered that below — why make any policies in any area if our concenr is that they can be changed in the future?
Read all the comments and found them very interesting. At first it sounded great to get the Feds out of education but, I have reservations about the states having sole control over K-12 education.
I think some constructive oversight is definitely necessary, but with a much reduced DOE. I've taught in several different states, and the standards vary. Perhaps some very basic standards (critical thinking being tops) could be agreed upon that states must agree to, but they would be free to develop the methods. Then I think competition among the states might be encouraged by the reformed DOE with rewards of some sort like grants. Some form of measurement would also have to be included. Also publicizing which states are showing success so parents are aware. Of course this isn't going to be easy, and bureaucratic bloat has to be monitored. This mess didn't happen overnight.
Patricia: Thank you for a sensible summary. Of course!
John: Interestingly enough, the first thing that came into my mind when I sat down at my computer this morning, even before seeing the email about this new version, I had a flashback to reading your previous version, then this thought came into my mind: Even if Jesus the Christ sent 50 of his own disciples out to the states, with instructions on what each state needed in order to save their K-12 education system - it wouldn't work. Due to everyone's human habit patterns, human knowledge, human discernment, human yadayadayada - the results would still be all over the map. But if Jesus himself were at the head of the DOE, directing from that position, with good feedback from the field, he could keep any straying from his original intent in check.
That experience was another clear indication to me that you are correct--direction from the top down is the key to saving our K-12 education system.
Clare: Thank you for your insightful perception about this most important matter.
I would qualify "direction from top down" to "minimal, competent direction from top down."
You are welcome! Great suggestion! Though I don't think the "minimal" would fit with what I experienced - the "competent" qualification was definitely an important part of it.
I don't always agree with you, but think you contribute tremendously to any question.
But this time, I don't agree AT ALL. KILL IT. Some states will excel, some fail miserably. But overall, they will be far better than what we have suffered. I think it is VERY unlikely a reformed DOEd will be anything like what you hope. Even under Trump and McMahan. Some states may, or do even better. Some failing states may learn from successful ones.
KILL IT.
Richard: TY for the support. The reality is that right now, ZERO states are succeeding and ALL are failiing miserably. And DOEd has absolutely nothing to do with that. Nothing is keeping any state from doing a superior job at educating K-12 students — yet none of them are. What's needed is positive leadership — which has been missing from DOEd.
P.S. We need a local Mama Bears Club working with a PTA at every school board in the country.
Kill it. Of all the unauthorized activity of 'creeping federalism', NONE has been so disastrously abused as the activity of DOE - -from CRT to pushing multi-sexuality agendas, to subordinating the Christian Bible to the Koran, DOE efforts to undermine traditional US History, morality, character and culture have been an abomination.
Accepted 'norms' in California, simply do not fly in Utah (nor do they in Texas) . Each social community establishes the standards for their children, and governs the education of their children through locally elected school boards.
The process of using Federal taxation to collect funds in the name of Education, stealing 50% of it to build empires, and dismantle accepted social norms, then grant or withhold the remainder to States based on State willingness to participate in controversial social experiments, is NOT acceptable. Get the Federal Government OUT of the business of Educating American Youth.
MadChimp: All of the things you list as problems, originated in and are supporterd by the States involved.
John, I believe that the Federal Dept of Education must continue to control, similar to that in corporations, as a quality control, transparency agency, and archive. To assure the Board of Directors that product quality is maintained and correctly reported, a product control dept reports to a VP. Other functions, Distribution of grants, etc. must be separately controlled by other dept.
The education control agency would investigate, produce studies, maintain free online archives of all states' "progress," records of all independent school systems, and reporting to the American people, schoolboards, and PTAs. and monitor state actions.
Jim: Yes, provide constructive oversight is a good way to put it.
John,
Your points are well made as usual. However, there are two key reasons to dissolve the department:
1. It has failed to improve US education (and could even be a reason for the decline!).
2. It is a money-laundering operation for the Democrat Party via the teacher's unions.
Neither of those fatal problems will be resolved by tinkering.
ATB
Stu
Stu: TY. No one is advocating "tinkering". My advice (<https://criticallythinking.substack.com/p/the-us-dept-of-education-going-forward>) is to effectively tear it down, and then rebuild it properly.
The problem with K-12 education is 95% diue to State Boards of Education. We have a fsailing system because no one is paying attention to them, or holding their feet to the fire. If properly setup, DOEd could play a pivotal role in doing that.
All of the reasons that AI gave John for preserving DoEd are the same reasons for its creation. The mechanisms described as beneficial are exactly the mechanisms used for destruction during the last half century.
Without some way to prevent it being subverted again, it's probably best to abolish it and return control of education to the states. Remember that before its establishment, on average, the states were doing a better job than they are now. Yes, some were lagging, but others were leading. It's much easier for a dinghy to change course than for an aircraft carrier to change course, and it's much easier for an aircraft carrier to change course than for a lighthouse to get out of the aircraft carrier's path.
If it is to be preserved at all, its remit must be substantially reduced. An absolutely necessary condition is abolition of public-sector unions, not just in education, but throughout government. FDR (!) opposed them, saying they resulted in two parties negotiating from the same side of the table against the absent taxpayers.
Carter established the DOEd in 1979/1980 in an attempt to win the 1980 election. A purely political play designed to garner the endorsement from the nation's largest teacher's union, the NEA. That's all there was to it. Since we already had HEW, there was no burning need for the establishment of a DOEd. The NEA continued to work closely with the Department they help create, introducing policies that mostly benefited the NEA at the expense of students. A decentralized education system, in the hands of state and locally elected or appointed school boards, is where the engines of improvement in American education will happen. Congress can still provide federal funding to the states through the Treasury Department.
decentralisation will more easily allow parents' input and constructive consultation.
Mary-Lou: That sounds good, but it has not worked for multiple reasons — e.g. parents do not have the interest or competence to study and oversee State standards — e.g. Science Standards. Right now they actually HAVE that power, yet they have no interest in using it.
Robert: Undoubtedly your history has some truth to it. That said, your endorsement of a "decentralized" education system fails to pass the sniff test. For example, there has been absolutely nothing stopping any state from teaching their K-12 students to be Critical Thinkers — yet ZERO DO SO. It's easy to kick around a fedeeral agency, but 95% of the faults of the current K-12 system are due to the States. As such it makes zero sense to remove a federal agency that (if done right) could provide powerful and productive education leadership — which is what is missing now.
I would rather see a comparison of the benefits of a single large entity to that of fifty smaller entities.
Let's compare generically first:
Fed: Controlled by Congress, Presumes that there will be only One Way to educate the American People and uses the power of the purse or law to cajole, coerce and convince the States to comply with the Fed way, Like a massive oil tanker it holds a lot, but of only one product, and changes course only with great effort and time, not to mention that if anything happens to be in its way, it will be run over them or move them off to the side. Its rationale depends upon a belief that the people of the respective states are not competent enough or wise enough to plan, execute, and succeed at educating their residents to become responsible citizens but somehow the members of a larger and more insulated bureaucracy are. It presumes that fifty different systems of educating Americans will be inherently detrimental to the health of the Nation. Greater accountability distance exists between the people educated and those who control how they are educated. There is no other Dept of Ed to provide competition for ideas or methods. Like most monopolies they lose vigor from lack of competition.
State: Controlled by whatever distribution of education power each state allows, Does not presume to tell other states what or how to teach its residents, Can change policy quicker within a state, as it does not require a delegation from any other state to approve, Provides incubators for new ideas. With some states controlled by Dems and some Republican, it assures that differing points of view will not be stifled by a then sitting President of the opposite party. The accountability distance between the educated and those who control how they are educated is smaller. They are rivals with other states’ policies, which tends to create comparison and competition. The universities are in the states and not the federal government. It is from the colleges and universities that many ideas and methods originate, and it is in the state education systems where they germinate.
Both: They have shown in the past to become bureaucracies whose purpose moves away from its mission statement towards one of self-preservation; That the Parkinson's Laws apply to both: Work expands so as to fill the time available for its completion, and the number of workers within public administration, bureaucracy or officialdom tends to grow, regardless of the amount of work to be done. This was attributed mainly to two factors: that officials want subordinates, not rivals, and that officials make work for each other. In the modern world all states have a vast diversity of population.
I don't believe that it is a matter of science. It is a matter of preference based on local culture, as there has never really ever been a single dominate national culture here, only a single dominate political theory. As the phrase goes: ‘You make the call’.
Chris: You have made a strawman argument. It is not a matter of one vs the other, but of integrating both together.
Also you said "DOEd Presumes that there will be only One Way to educate the American People" which is not true. If you recall when I discussed that DOEd should be completely reformed, Point #4 <https://criticallythinking.substack.com/p/the-us-dept-of-education-going-forward>.
Makes you wonder how education was so effective before DOE was hatched. Think critically: if all states are uniform then we can’t discover which approaches work best.
RH: You are proving a well-known fact "Correlation does not imply causation".
1 - The Left has made a much more aggressive effort to take over K-12 education — in teacher certification and on the States' level — over the last 30-40 years. That is the reason for the decline in K-12 education, not DOEd.
2 - Right now, all states are uniform — uniformly poor. For example, 49 of 50 states have adopted the progressive and inferior set of K-12 Science standards. For example, essentially no State has good legislation that prohibits age-inappropriate books in K-12 schools. I'm advocating for uniformly much better.
John's two arguments describe the status quo, not the status quo ante. These conditions came into existence precisely because pf the existence of DoEd, not despite it.
Van: With all due respect, that is baloney.
The performance of the nation's education establishment was clearly better before DoEd came into existence than at any time since. NEA and leftists used DoEd to destroy American education, not to preserve or improve it. We know from experience that during the last century at least, the people interested in "serving" in government are either incompetent or actively destructive, whereas the people who want small competent government aren't interested in engaging in it. Part of the problem was created by the Pendeleton Act of 1883, which made civil "service" a career instead of a duty, and more lucrative and attractive. If DoEd is to continue, some mechanisms must be emplaced to ensure it's used for improvement, else it will inevitably again be used for destruction and to enrich union leaders.
Van: I have already responded to that opinion: correlation doe not prove causation. The unequivocal evidence is that the failure of the US K-12 education system is 95%± on the backs of States.
I definately agree with your last sentence.
At this point my inclination is to abolish the DOE and the teacher's union and start over. The brainwashing and dumbing down of our children is a disgrace, and there should be major reforms at the state level as well. Get back to the basics, and that includes critical thinking.
SM: I am effectively advocating that DOEd be reborn — i.e., start from scratch <https://criticallythinking.substack.com/p/the-us-dept-of-education-going-forward>.
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, however,…."
The goals are admirable, if only the process could work without the corruption inevitable in a bloated bureaucracy. And bureaucracies inevitably become bloated.
Van: Yes there are challenges — however there is no better option available to us. For example, there is no way to avoid bureaucratic incompetence, etc — but every one of the fifty States' education depoartment is also a bureaucracy.
Reforming anything in government typically results in preserving aspects of the organizational culture. It’s like a chronic disease that does not go away. Treating the symptoms may make you feel better, but the disease remains.
The only hope is to start from scratch with a new mission, goals and objectives, strategy, operational plan, people, funding, location, etc.
After years of experience seeing wishful thinking through reform fail, my recommendation is to kill it and start all over.
John: I agree as I am effectively advocating that DOEd be reborn — i.e., start from scratch <https://criticallythinking.substack.com/p/the-us-dept-of-education-going-forward>.
What happens when the DOE grows again under another admin? Getting advice from AI seems like a lack of critical thinking.
Carey: I have already spelled out my position, in detail, on a prior commentary. The AI check was to see if I had forgotten something, not to determine my position... Regarding your concern about future administrations, I answered that below — why make any policies in any area if our concenr is that they can be changed in the future?
I do not disagree. All organizations ( and people) need guardrails. Thanks
Tim: Good. My point is that there are very few guardrails for your State Board of Education, so please do something about that.
I would like to see those guardrails come from a responsible DOE. It is like herding cats.
Tim: I have no problem with that. However, where is your concern about guardrails for your State's powerful Bloard of Education???
create broader opportunities for parents' input, as a counterweight to the Boards.
Mary-Lou: I have no problem with that. But this is a STATE problem and has nothing to do with DOEd.