Okay, final time, like or intend it or not, your reference to the dubious concept of so-called "Judeo-Christian standards" has everything to do with both spirituality and politics. This is the rub. At least we identified that as the difference between your view and mine. That is progress.
John: we have reached such a rarified situation in our discussion that I do not know how to interpret your comments. I do not understand what you are referring to. 'Judeo-Christian', is -- at is generally and presently used, especially in the American spiritual and political context -- not a worthwhile term: its purpose is intended for confusion, deception and corruption. Again, you and I embrace assumptions, suppositions and gestalt frameworks that appear to differ greatly and that without a lot of work (work not practical in this comment forum) that preclude easy agreement. For clarification, I am not "playing [a] game, much less one that the Left is playing. I recognize sentiments in your discussion that once characterized mine. I have hope that you will see. Press on!
David: Final time — I initially referenced "Judeo-Christian standards". That has nothing to do with politics — which is what you are erroneously injecting into it.
Mr. Droz, As I indicated before, I do not see that you and I share a sufficient-enough framework for profitably conversing on the topic of the what you call "Judeo-Christian standards." You utterly misapprehend how that term has been employed in recent times for duping purposes. You liberally peppered your article and comments with the misdirecting term. Practically speaking, it is a term referring to a mostly empty set when applied to situations of current interest and import. No, it is not meaningful to say that the New testament "comes from" the Old Testament. (As an aside, I have a great regard for the Old Testament, perhaps more than most others sitting in the pews.) But the obfuscating term, 'Judeo-Christian', is not only not helpful -- it is generally obstructing -- in the effort to right the ship of moral order in the Church and in society. Precisely put, yes, there is a genealogy of many elements in the Christological story. Nonetheless, there is an obvious and glorious discontinuity which is the central point of that whole story that creates a profound bifurcation. To needlessly plow that under for the sake of quick and easy political accommodations is, I believe, a grave error. One winds up with a sort of "Daily Wire" vision of commonality, an ersatz commonality, a fake conservatism that is really another version of anti-Christian, anti-Catholic decay (spiritually and politically). But this is well-trodden ground and you should find no difficulty in mining without my assistance. I prefer to leave this with my supportive comment regarding our like concern for the enhanced emphasis of mathematics and science in Catholic education.
David: I have 100% appreciation how some anti-Christians have tried to undermine the legitimate phrase "Judeo-Christian". Those on the Left have repeatedly tried to pervert our language (think "wind farm"). I choose not to play that game and suggest that you do not either.
Incorrect, I respectfully think, Sir. It appears in a time immersed in massive vice, intellectual degradation, widespread absence of character and nearly-complete institutional corruption, that what is the straightest path to the Good, Common end seems so distasteful that it is claimed to be "impractical." No matter that some of us were issuing warnings long ago and were ignored then as out of touch. Well, here we are, further down the road toward calamity. This is an old story. The good news is that properly like-minded men can begin again and can produce the necessary nucleation centers. Thank you for recognizing the problem and helping to make people aware of the enormity of the looming disaster.
John if I am correct in my conjectures about the future direction in this and other nations, the collapse of the public schools will be unavoidable. Thus, we need to act and act with purpose. If you really believe in the value of Catholic schools then you must believe in the purpose of the Catholic life of Faith in its deepest elements. If THAT is so then you really could have no higher or -- frankly -- no other wish for human beings. This IS the loving thing to do for others. Note, and this is very important, this is not about us coercing conversions. This is about a divine order that at this period of history is unfolding the possibilities and the hard realities for those with whom we live in our nations. Playtime, Hollywood, gameshow, hedonistic, credit-fed sexually frivolous times are, apparently, over. In vector parlance, public education is not a 0.5 Unit vector between the Origin and 0.99 Unit vector of Catholic education. Public education is -1.00 times the Unit vector of Catholic education. In other terms, public education is harmful, and not in a merely small way. In this light, providing a Catholic education, much like we did -- and much like we did with Catholic charity hospitals -- will be what we can offer to those who will increasingly be coming to a realization about the seriousness of their, and our, situation. We no longer can tolerate the ineluctable civilization slide that is resulting from our being cooperative, "nice," and supportive of a two-tiered Catholic-secular society. Watch what God can do if we courageously resist the temptation to save people from God's loving instruction.
The public schools must be allowed to collapse and vanish. The Catholic schools, and the whole decrepit, temporal, crusty hierarchy of the diocese -- captured as they are -- have failed in their true mission on an enormous scale. As we discussed, Catholics need to build up a professional class of faithful. Only in this way can we contend with the genetic biotechnologists, AI engineers and materials scientists who have accepted for themselves the role of domination in a dehumanized, physical world where all has been coordinated in a unified informatic system. And we still need the verbal, artistic and the narrative powers as well.
David: I understand your concerns, but we simply can not allow public schools to "collapse and vanish." That may seem to be a reasonable 30,000 foot view, but it makes no sensez to the millions of innocent children who would be affected for life.
By the way, on another topic of yours here, indeed a future system of Catholic schools -- may it come to pass - absolutely needs to do some remedial work itself in (1) providing added emphasis on mathematics, science, technology on par with the success in previous eras regarding language, literature, philosophy and theology: (2) encourage the inventive, innovative, enterprising and entrepreneurial virtues and attitudes; (3) foster careers in banking and finance; (4) retreat from secular versions of pseudo-messianic,, low-power careers, e.g., social work, "liturgy," etc.; (5) re-focus on developing young males, probably in male-only colleges and universities.
David: Indeed. My general message is that private schools should NOT follow the US public Schools model, as it has been co-opted by Left-wing, anti-American activists.
John: Hmmm, perhaps Hillsdale was fearful of a political ambush of some sort. I will inquire with Larry Arrn and advise. Please be encouraged and resolute in this pursuit -- would that the nation had many millions more citizens of your ilk. May God Continue to Bless and Keep You and Your Family
John: Am pleased to learn that your survey appears to have been extensive, however, please allow me to respectfully point out that 1) Bullet-points 1-5 of description of the Hillsdale curriculum specifically identify an appropriately broad course-of-instruction that is, let's say, beneficially illuminated by History, i.e., "content-rich, balanced, and strong across the four disciplines of math, science, literature, and history" (the entire description is slandered by the accusation of "nothing on Science") and 2) Bullet-point No. 6 of description of the Hillsdale curriculum specifically identifies "An approach to instruction that acknowledges objective standards of correctness, logic, beauty, weightiness, and truth". This approach to instruction is exactly instruction-in-critical-thinking, of course, notwithstanding that the description does not utilize that specific phrase. Please allow me to suggest that the Hillsdale offering is worthy of a deeper-dive investigation from you than it received during your earlier examination. Your consideration of these comments is appreciated -- Thank You.
Stephen: My answer re Hillsdale was brief, as this need also be. Hillsdale is a good improvement compared to most alternatives. That said, I must call a spade-a-spade: they need to do better. What I said was specifically about K-12 curriculum, that Hillsdale offers on thneir website. That is NOT the same as Hillsdale's higher-ed curriculum.
FYI, I have been involved with in-depth dealings with Hillsdale. I haven't mentioned these as they are not flattering to Hillsdale. For example, several PhDs directly contacted Hillsdale to discuss what they were teaching about climate. Despite several polite entreaties from very qualified people, they refused to discuss anything. Not a good sign.
Concerned about schooling for Great Grandson who will be ready for Kindergarden in the fall. Does anyone know of good Catholic School ,critical thinking in the Derry , NH area please?
was reading the New Yorkers this afternoon I came upon this quote that I’ll read to you. It’s from a professor Elizabeth Jay Perry, Harvard and she’s talking about the Chinese system of education and the ancient times and how she describes it is, what I thought was very interesting. She called it educated acquiescence and that seems to me that’s what consensus is educated acquiescence so I thought I would pass that along to you.
Surprisingly John, in New Jersey, many students are going to catholic high schools because of their athletic programs. In many of these cases though, the students and parents, want out of their public school system because it has become a toxic sewer of many different pollutants. Thanks for another insightful article,
Jim: Catholic schools on all levels have had good sports programs (e.g., Notre Dame in football, Boston College in hockey, etc.). That said, the main reason for going to a private school is a better education.
John, I was referring to high schools, not universities, and that includes expensive sports that require a lot of equipment like football and hockey, sports that those schools avoided before.
Stephen: Yes, I know who those people are. Here are two concerns I have with them: 1) the only K-12 curriculum they offer (per their website) is on American History (e.g., nothing on Science), and 2) their own description of the Classical Education they are aadvocating (<https://k12.hillsdale.edu/About/Classical-Education/>) doesn't say a word about Critical Thinking. Those are two major deficiencies.
Mr. Droz, I respectfully disagree on this point. Even a purely, non-confessional, analysis would identify the role that Jesus played in the New Testament narrative as that of radically superseding the old system of law. "Judeo-Christian," as a term, is becoming more widely understood as a tool of trickery. In one, critical interpretation, it is used by a long-standing a wide field of propagandists for mesmerizing and stupefying the public. If one would kindly re-read and consider my previous reply, I distinguish merely identifying and enumerating several items (not uniformly interpreted, by the way) of the Decalogue and then asserting that these represent the foundation for some general, social, political, philosophical and theological compatibility between Judaism and the way pointed to by Christ. Sufficient evidence for this is that Jesus was tortured and crucified by the Jewish community from which he emerged. Thus, there evermore apparent hostility being directed at Christians, especially the Roman Catholics and the Orthodox, by an amorphously-constituted, but discernable, present-day collection. Catholics need not be easily drawn into political conflict as unjust provocateurs would wish. Catholics need to talk of Catholic values --- period. The Catholic Church has ably defined Christian dogma as a means of both salvation of the soul, and as a secondary benefit, social organization adaptable to the various ethnic peoples, generally organized into states (roughly). This is what built Western Civilization. It also has been embraced well by other cultures in Asia, Africa and South America, though not -- as everywhere -- without nefarious forces incessantly attempting to undermine its wholesome effect and the organizing power of Christian Charity (not to be confused with welfare-state, trashy, brick-and-mortar 'charity' parasitically engorged on governmental bribery, entrapment and printing-press largesse). So, again, there are no "Judeo-Christian values" and, thus, there can be no "Judeo-Christian values" in the New Testament. I doubt that you and I will reach any agreement on this matter of contention, thus, I will leave you now -- and your good readers -- in peace and good will to consider this if you so choose.
David: respectfully you are convoluting matters. Do the Ten Commandments come from the New Testament? Isn't there a reading at EVERY Mass from the Old Testament? Don't confuse politics with Judeo-Christian standards.
Okay, final time, like or intend it or not, your reference to the dubious concept of so-called "Judeo-Christian standards" has everything to do with both spirituality and politics. This is the rub. At least we identified that as the difference between your view and mine. That is progress.
John: we have reached such a rarified situation in our discussion that I do not know how to interpret your comments. I do not understand what you are referring to. 'Judeo-Christian', is -- at is generally and presently used, especially in the American spiritual and political context -- not a worthwhile term: its purpose is intended for confusion, deception and corruption. Again, you and I embrace assumptions, suppositions and gestalt frameworks that appear to differ greatly and that without a lot of work (work not practical in this comment forum) that preclude easy agreement. For clarification, I am not "playing [a] game, much less one that the Left is playing. I recognize sentiments in your discussion that once characterized mine. I have hope that you will see. Press on!
David: Final time — I initially referenced "Judeo-Christian standards". That has nothing to do with politics — which is what you are erroneously injecting into it.
Mr. Droz, As I indicated before, I do not see that you and I share a sufficient-enough framework for profitably conversing on the topic of the what you call "Judeo-Christian standards." You utterly misapprehend how that term has been employed in recent times for duping purposes. You liberally peppered your article and comments with the misdirecting term. Practically speaking, it is a term referring to a mostly empty set when applied to situations of current interest and import. No, it is not meaningful to say that the New testament "comes from" the Old Testament. (As an aside, I have a great regard for the Old Testament, perhaps more than most others sitting in the pews.) But the obfuscating term, 'Judeo-Christian', is not only not helpful -- it is generally obstructing -- in the effort to right the ship of moral order in the Church and in society. Precisely put, yes, there is a genealogy of many elements in the Christological story. Nonetheless, there is an obvious and glorious discontinuity which is the central point of that whole story that creates a profound bifurcation. To needlessly plow that under for the sake of quick and easy political accommodations is, I believe, a grave error. One winds up with a sort of "Daily Wire" vision of commonality, an ersatz commonality, a fake conservatism that is really another version of anti-Christian, anti-Catholic decay (spiritually and politically). But this is well-trodden ground and you should find no difficulty in mining without my assistance. I prefer to leave this with my supportive comment regarding our like concern for the enhanced emphasis of mathematics and science in Catholic education.
David: I have 100% appreciation how some anti-Christians have tried to undermine the legitimate phrase "Judeo-Christian". Those on the Left have repeatedly tried to pervert our language (think "wind farm"). I choose not to play that game and suggest that you do not either.
Incorrect, I respectfully think, Sir. It appears in a time immersed in massive vice, intellectual degradation, widespread absence of character and nearly-complete institutional corruption, that what is the straightest path to the Good, Common end seems so distasteful that it is claimed to be "impractical." No matter that some of us were issuing warnings long ago and were ignored then as out of touch. Well, here we are, further down the road toward calamity. This is an old story. The good news is that properly like-minded men can begin again and can produce the necessary nucleation centers. Thank you for recognizing the problem and helping to make people aware of the enormity of the looming disaster.
David: Based on the poisitioning of these comments, it is not cleaer what you are responding to. Please repost.
John if I am correct in my conjectures about the future direction in this and other nations, the collapse of the public schools will be unavoidable. Thus, we need to act and act with purpose. If you really believe in the value of Catholic schools then you must believe in the purpose of the Catholic life of Faith in its deepest elements. If THAT is so then you really could have no higher or -- frankly -- no other wish for human beings. This IS the loving thing to do for others. Note, and this is very important, this is not about us coercing conversions. This is about a divine order that at this period of history is unfolding the possibilities and the hard realities for those with whom we live in our nations. Playtime, Hollywood, gameshow, hedonistic, credit-fed sexually frivolous times are, apparently, over. In vector parlance, public education is not a 0.5 Unit vector between the Origin and 0.99 Unit vector of Catholic education. Public education is -1.00 times the Unit vector of Catholic education. In other terms, public education is harmful, and not in a merely small way. In this light, providing a Catholic education, much like we did -- and much like we did with Catholic charity hospitals -- will be what we can offer to those who will increasingly be coming to a realization about the seriousness of their, and our, situation. We no longer can tolerate the ineluctable civilization slide that is resulting from our being cooperative, "nice," and supportive of a two-tiered Catholic-secular society. Watch what God can do if we courageously resist the temptation to save people from God's loving instruction.
David: I appreciate your intellectual argument, but it is simply not practical.
The public schools must be allowed to collapse and vanish. The Catholic schools, and the whole decrepit, temporal, crusty hierarchy of the diocese -- captured as they are -- have failed in their true mission on an enormous scale. As we discussed, Catholics need to build up a professional class of faithful. Only in this way can we contend with the genetic biotechnologists, AI engineers and materials scientists who have accepted for themselves the role of domination in a dehumanized, physical world where all has been coordinated in a unified informatic system. And we still need the verbal, artistic and the narrative powers as well.
David: I understand your concerns, but we simply can not allow public schools to "collapse and vanish." That may seem to be a reasonable 30,000 foot view, but it makes no sensez to the millions of innocent children who would be affected for life.
By the way, on another topic of yours here, indeed a future system of Catholic schools -- may it come to pass - absolutely needs to do some remedial work itself in (1) providing added emphasis on mathematics, science, technology on par with the success in previous eras regarding language, literature, philosophy and theology: (2) encourage the inventive, innovative, enterprising and entrepreneurial virtues and attitudes; (3) foster careers in banking and finance; (4) retreat from secular versions of pseudo-messianic,, low-power careers, e.g., social work, "liturgy," etc.; (5) re-focus on developing young males, probably in male-only colleges and universities.
David: Indeed. My general message is that private schools should NOT follow the US public Schools model, as it has been co-opted by Left-wing, anti-American activists.
John: Hmmm, perhaps Hillsdale was fearful of a political ambush of some sort. I will inquire with Larry Arrn and advise. Please be encouraged and resolute in this pursuit -- would that the nation had many millions more citizens of your ilk. May God Continue to Bless and Keep You and Your Family
Stephen: Thank you. Hillsdale's response was very unexpected...
John: Am pleased to learn that your survey appears to have been extensive, however, please allow me to respectfully point out that 1) Bullet-points 1-5 of description of the Hillsdale curriculum specifically identify an appropriately broad course-of-instruction that is, let's say, beneficially illuminated by History, i.e., "content-rich, balanced, and strong across the four disciplines of math, science, literature, and history" (the entire description is slandered by the accusation of "nothing on Science") and 2) Bullet-point No. 6 of description of the Hillsdale curriculum specifically identifies "An approach to instruction that acknowledges objective standards of correctness, logic, beauty, weightiness, and truth". This approach to instruction is exactly instruction-in-critical-thinking, of course, notwithstanding that the description does not utilize that specific phrase. Please allow me to suggest that the Hillsdale offering is worthy of a deeper-dive investigation from you than it received during your earlier examination. Your consideration of these comments is appreciated -- Thank You.
Stephen: My answer re Hillsdale was brief, as this need also be. Hillsdale is a good improvement compared to most alternatives. That said, I must call a spade-a-spade: they need to do better. What I said was specifically about K-12 curriculum, that Hillsdale offers on thneir website. That is NOT the same as Hillsdale's higher-ed curriculum.
FYI, I have been involved with in-depth dealings with Hillsdale. I haven't mentioned these as they are not flattering to Hillsdale. For example, several PhDs directly contacted Hillsdale to discuss what they were teaching about climate. Despite several polite entreaties from very qualified people, they refused to discuss anything. Not a good sign.
Concerned about schooling for Great Grandson who will be ready for Kindergarden in the fall. Does anyone know of good Catholic School ,critical thinking in the Derry , NH area please?
Barbara: Here is a sample list of K-12 Catholic Schools in New Hampshire.: <https://www.niche.com/k12/search/best-catholic-high-schools/s/new-hampshire/>. You'd have to do further investigations to see whether they really teach Critical Thinking.
John ,
Another really excellent piece, and in today's edition of P&D. Kudos! Is Secretary of Education in the offing?
Rich
No.
Too bad!!
was reading the New Yorkers this afternoon I came upon this quote that I’ll read to you. It’s from a professor Elizabeth Jay Perry, Harvard and she’s talking about the Chinese system of education and the ancient times and how she describes it is, what I thought was very interesting. She called it educated acquiescence and that seems to me that’s what consensus is educated acquiescence so I thought I would pass that along to you.
John: Yes, unfortunately there is some relevence to that perspective. Thank you.
I have requested and received a k-12 curriculum thumb drive from the Buffalo BOE as I too am convinced education is the critical vulnerability.
I just received it and am waiting for a cable to load it on my iPhone.
Surprisingly John, in New Jersey, many students are going to catholic high schools because of their athletic programs. In many of these cases though, the students and parents, want out of their public school system because it has become a toxic sewer of many different pollutants. Thanks for another insightful article,
Jim: Catholic schools on all levels have had good sports programs (e.g., Notre Dame in football, Boston College in hockey, etc.). That said, the main reason for going to a private school is a better education.
John, I was referring to high schools, not universities, and that includes expensive sports that require a lot of equipment like football and hockey, sports that those schools avoided before.
Jim: Yes, that's why I said "all levels." I cited college teams as most people would not be familiar with high school teams.
Please check out Hillsdale College K-12 curricula and support elements
Stephen: Yes, I know who those people are. Here are two concerns I have with them: 1) the only K-12 curriculum they offer (per their website) is on American History (e.g., nothing on Science), and 2) their own description of the Classical Education they are aadvocating (<https://k12.hillsdale.edu/About/Classical-Education/>) doesn't say a word about Critical Thinking. Those are two major deficiencies.
The Thales Academy schools are far better. Also (although not as good) the Chesterton Catholic Schools are reasonable <https://chestertonschoolsnetwork.org/about#our-story>.
Mr. Droz, I respectfully disagree on this point. Even a purely, non-confessional, analysis would identify the role that Jesus played in the New Testament narrative as that of radically superseding the old system of law. "Judeo-Christian," as a term, is becoming more widely understood as a tool of trickery. In one, critical interpretation, it is used by a long-standing a wide field of propagandists for mesmerizing and stupefying the public. If one would kindly re-read and consider my previous reply, I distinguish merely identifying and enumerating several items (not uniformly interpreted, by the way) of the Decalogue and then asserting that these represent the foundation for some general, social, political, philosophical and theological compatibility between Judaism and the way pointed to by Christ. Sufficient evidence for this is that Jesus was tortured and crucified by the Jewish community from which he emerged. Thus, there evermore apparent hostility being directed at Christians, especially the Roman Catholics and the Orthodox, by an amorphously-constituted, but discernable, present-day collection. Catholics need not be easily drawn into political conflict as unjust provocateurs would wish. Catholics need to talk of Catholic values --- period. The Catholic Church has ably defined Christian dogma as a means of both salvation of the soul, and as a secondary benefit, social organization adaptable to the various ethnic peoples, generally organized into states (roughly). This is what built Western Civilization. It also has been embraced well by other cultures in Asia, Africa and South America, though not -- as everywhere -- without nefarious forces incessantly attempting to undermine its wholesome effect and the organizing power of Christian Charity (not to be confused with welfare-state, trashy, brick-and-mortar 'charity' parasitically engorged on governmental bribery, entrapment and printing-press largesse). So, again, there are no "Judeo-Christian values" and, thus, there can be no "Judeo-Christian values" in the New Testament. I doubt that you and I will reach any agreement on this matter of contention, thus, I will leave you now -- and your good readers -- in peace and good will to consider this if you so choose.
David: respectfully you are convoluting matters. Do the Ten Commandments come from the New Testament? Isn't there a reading at EVERY Mass from the Old Testament? Don't confuse politics with Judeo-Christian standards.