I concur John and should have made that point. Classical education is the ferment in which critical thinking achieves its point. Your points about assessment of the position, analysis of the subject, weighing the other side, reflection and further dialogue are very valuable
Stepping back a bit it is evident that Classical education, when presented well, develops critical thinking, and that is foundational to a full, on purpose life. I have pastored many persons that at mid life "hit the wall," and could not understand why they were spending their life as they were. They finally realized they only chased shinny objects (money) and never found their calling. Modern progressive education allows for this. Since this progressive model took hold in America we have descended from the best K-12 education among the 38 developed nations of the world, toward the bottom half. This does not provide the intelligence needed to sustain a democratic republic.
Classical education, because of the subject matter handled; and, the subject matter being aligned with brain development, is much more likely to develop students that will begin dealing with life's ultimate questions in highschool. It is from this grounding that students become whole peresons and find their purpose, thereby reducing greatly the number of "lost souls" struggling in mid life.
Not only that, but classical education prepares a student for a full future. Since futurists may tell you that the future belongs to the learning worker, and since Classical education is the only education that teaches a student how to learn, you can properly reason such a student has a brighter future.
Marty:TY for the good comments from an experienced educator. I am a BIG supporter of a classical education. My main point here is that if a classical education ONLY advocates teaching the Socratic Method, they have not gone far enough, as Critical Thinking is a key step further. Yes, they have gone beyond what most public schools do, but why not score a TOUCHDOWN now that they are at the 5 yard line?
What a great clarifying explanation that is easy to understand. It should be used in all high schools and universities by including it in the synopsis of each class. Thank you.
An excellent toolkit. I suspect that teaching this takes more time investment than public schools would like, but it is sorely needed. Teaching how to develop thoughtful and informed conversations cannot be rushed. It takes time to allow all students to learn to verbalize their thoughts and questions and build confidence in doing so (practicing). Learning that your idea is possibly wrong and accepting constructive criticism is a lost skill. We would have a better society with better thinkers.
Linda: TY. Yes like any advanced skill it takes time and practice. That said I have now drawn up 29 page K-12 Standards to formally teach Critical Thinking. Nothing like this exists anywhere the US.
I understood that common sense was the framework of Socratic discourse
Common sense is the basis of empirical logic in its traditional definition of complex but orderly.
Common sense is a falsifiable statement according to Popper’s definition and the basis of the traditional definition of mentally competent.
If rationality or sanity or mental competence or the scientific method are still better at physical prediction than ideology or other delusions then teaching the rational mindset is probably simpler and more effective than critical thinking. Education has been sharing of common knowledge and teaching how to use the information since people learned to talk, while the official narrative has mostly been used to control the peasants.
My 2 cents. Classical Conversations does this VERY well. We practice the Socratic Circle with the kids in high school and read copious amounts of literature and books about fallacies as well. I found this article quite helpful! Thank you!
Don:nThank you for those thoughts.I would question #6 as analogies are very often helpful in getting people to understand complex matters, much more simply.
William: just like there are good an bad lawyers, good and bad priests, etc., there are good and bad AIs. In my experiencem AlterAI is insightful and spot on. If you disagree with anything it said here, please elaborate.
I concur John and should have made that point. Classical education is the ferment in which critical thinking achieves its point. Your points about assessment of the position, analysis of the subject, weighing the other side, reflection and further dialogue are very valuable
Stepping back a bit it is evident that Classical education, when presented well, develops critical thinking, and that is foundational to a full, on purpose life. I have pastored many persons that at mid life "hit the wall," and could not understand why they were spending their life as they were. They finally realized they only chased shinny objects (money) and never found their calling. Modern progressive education allows for this. Since this progressive model took hold in America we have descended from the best K-12 education among the 38 developed nations of the world, toward the bottom half. This does not provide the intelligence needed to sustain a democratic republic.
Classical education, because of the subject matter handled; and, the subject matter being aligned with brain development, is much more likely to develop students that will begin dealing with life's ultimate questions in highschool. It is from this grounding that students become whole peresons and find their purpose, thereby reducing greatly the number of "lost souls" struggling in mid life.
Not only that, but classical education prepares a student for a full future. Since futurists may tell you that the future belongs to the learning worker, and since Classical education is the only education that teaches a student how to learn, you can properly reason such a student has a brighter future.
Marty:TY for the good comments from an experienced educator. I am a BIG supporter of a classical education. My main point here is that if a classical education ONLY advocates teaching the Socratic Method, they have not gone far enough, as Critical Thinking is a key step further. Yes, they have gone beyond what most public schools do, but why not score a TOUCHDOWN now that they are at the 5 yard line?
What’s often called “critical thinking” today is still instrumental — optimized for output.
The harder problem is orientation without substitution: judgment that remains intact with AI.
I write about this transition in my Substack, if useful:
👉 https://substack.com/@leontsvasmansapiognosis
Dr. Droz,
What a great clarifying explanation that is easy to understand. It should be used in all high schools and universities by including it in the synopsis of each class. Thank you.
Paul Kennedy
Paul: Good that you get my message. Yes the relationship IS easy to understand, and apply!
An excellent toolkit. I suspect that teaching this takes more time investment than public schools would like, but it is sorely needed. Teaching how to develop thoughtful and informed conversations cannot be rushed. It takes time to allow all students to learn to verbalize their thoughts and questions and build confidence in doing so (practicing). Learning that your idea is possibly wrong and accepting constructive criticism is a lost skill. We would have a better society with better thinkers.
Linda: TY. Yes like any advanced skill it takes time and practice. That said I have now drawn up 29 page K-12 Standards to formally teach Critical Thinking. Nothing like this exists anywhere the US.
I understood that common sense was the framework of Socratic discourse
Common sense is the basis of empirical logic in its traditional definition of complex but orderly.
Common sense is a falsifiable statement according to Popper’s definition and the basis of the traditional definition of mentally competent.
If rationality or sanity or mental competence or the scientific method are still better at physical prediction than ideology or other delusions then teaching the rational mindset is probably simpler and more effective than critical thinking. Education has been sharing of common knowledge and teaching how to use the information since people learned to talk, while the official narrative has mostly been used to control the peasants.
My 2 cents. Classical Conversations does this VERY well. We practice the Socratic Circle with the kids in high school and read copious amounts of literature and books about fallacies as well. I found this article quite helpful! Thank you!
Christy: TY for writing, and glad you found this info useful.
John...excellent info on Critical Thinking.
I'd like to add some principles on "First Principles" being popularized by Musk.
Here’s what I took from this video below on First Principle Thinking:
First Principles Thinking:
It’s the assumptions that kill us
1-Identify and define your current assumptions.
2-Identify factual assumptions that may not be actual facts.
3-Question your language patterns for framing solutions that might lead you to make assumptions that are incorrect.
4-Breakdown the problem into its fundamental principles.
5-Boil things down to their fundamental truths and reason up from there.
6-Avoid reason by analogy, i.e., copying what others do with slight variation.
7-Create new solutions in terms of ideal outcomes and constraints.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4NWT7omLVQ
Don:nThank you for those thoughts.I would question #6 as analogies are very often helpful in getting people to understand complex matters, much more simply.
sounds like AI
William: just like there are good an bad lawyers, good and bad priests, etc., there are good and bad AIs. In my experiencem AlterAI is insightful and spot on. If you disagree with anything it said here, please elaborate.
A good summary overview and comparison.
Chris: TY. I think so.